"Dalit Literature Has Never Been Sectarian ": Conversation With Harish Mangalam

                                                   

              

KMS: (K.M. Sherrif)	You have defined Dalit literature as literature written about Dalits. This appears to be the most reasonable definition because it takes into consideration a significant segment of literature written by sympathizers or ‘fellow travellers’ who are themselves not Dalits. Could you elaborate?
HM:  (Harish Mangalam)	Yes literature written about Dalits is Dalit literature.  But only literature written by writers who come from the Dalit communities has the authenticity of experience and the ring of truth. There is a saying in Gujarati : jode jene danke, enej vednani khabar pade‘only the one who wears the shoe knows where it bites’.this is true of Gujarati Dalit literature too. The works of non-Dalit writers, though sympathetic to Dalits, are always likely to have a hollow ring. Fellow travelers will always be fellow- travelers!
KMS	You have also stated, “If there can be a Gujarati Jain literature and a Gujarati Parsi literature, then why not a Gujarati Dalit  literature?” This seems to me a negative reaction. Could you give a positive reason for the existence of a separate body of Dalit literature? Is it the result of the assertion of a submerged Identity?
HM	I would like to ask you whether there has ever been such a hue and cry over Jain literature or Parsi literature as there has been over Dalit literature. Obviously not. We are, therefore, quite justified in having our doubts about such orchestrated opposition. If you can take these doubts as pointers to a naked truth, then what you describe as my ‘negative reaction’ is also such a positive. For us, it is not a negative reaction, but a positive one. It someone taken your response to be a ‘reaction’, you would naturally assume that it has had some impact. It is an assertion of the dignity of the fact is that it is easier to flog Dalit literature than to compete with it!
KMS	Do you think that the birth of Dalit literature is the result of the failure of the progressive literature movements (especially those with Marxist orientation) to bring into proper perspective the socio-cultural identities of Dalits and other deprived sections of society?
HM	I don’t think this is true of Gujarati Dalit literature nor of Marathi Dalit literature. The writers who belong to progressive movements of literature uphold the same basic human values that Dalit  writers do. In fact many of the strands of the various progressive literary movements have been woven into Gujarati Dalit literature. Gujarati Dalit literature is a socio-literary movements deeply  influenced by the thoughts of Mahatma Jyoti  Phule and Dr. Babasaheb  Ambedkar. It is indebted to the mass movements they led. In my collection of essays, Vidit, I wrote: “Any work of literature which seeks to express in words, the pulses of those sections of humanity which are oppressed and which are engaged in struggles for their existence deserves to be called, in the broadest sense, Dalit literature.”
KMS	Gujarati Dalit literature has not been able to make as much of an impact on the literary scene as Marathi Dalit literature. In fact much of Gujarati Dalit literature  shows the strong influence of Marathi Dalit literature. Can you explain why this happened?
HM	Dalit literature is now a powerful influence In Gujarati too. Marathi Dalit literature had its beginning before independence. It has thus had a head-start over Gujarati Dalit literature. On the other hand, Gujarati Dalit literature can be said to have taken off only with the anti-reservation agitation of 1981. But it has already made a mark of its own. Guajarati Dalit literature is cast in its own mould. As for its relation to Marathi Dalit literature, inspiration is a factor, but not influence. For one thing, very little of Marathi dalit writers have had little direct contact with it. Influence or imitation is out of question.
KMS	Mangal Rathod once remarked that in much of Dalit literature, “The situation is there, but not the inspiration.” Though much of Gujarati Dalit literature does not bear this statement out, don’t you think there is an element of truth in it; especially with regard to those poets and writers whose works are merely reflex action, resisting the pomposity and hollowness of the ‘academy culture’?
HM	Mangal Rathod might have remarked that “the situation is there, but not the Inspiration. “But I would like to point out that Dalit writers are more concerned with ‘perspiration ‘than ‘inspiration’! in its pre-occupation with fostering upholding human values, it cannot afford to be a decorative piece or a consumer article. Dalit literature is not Dalit literature for entertainment.
KMS	Will it be correct to say that the most significant  works in both poetry and fiction in Gujarati literature in the Eighties have come from Dalit writers,but remained unrecognized? I am thinking of Kisan Sosa, Mohan Parmar. Mangal Rathod, Yeshwant Vaghela, Narsingh Ujamba, Dalpat Chauhan, Harish Mangalam. . . and a host of others.
HM	You are absolutely right there. The field of Gujarati literature has been ploughed deeply by these writers and poets. Their contributions have been substantial. Joseph Macwan, Dalpat Chauhan, Mohan Parmar, and B.N. Vankar have kept the flame of Gujarati fiction burning. Joseph Macwan’s collection of life-sketches, Vyathana Veetak has received the Kendra Sahitya AKademy Award. Gujarati Dalit Varta, the collection of stories edited by Mohan Parmar and me                               has Mohan Parmar’s collection of stories, Nakalank. There are a few more names worth mentioning: Pravin Gadhvi, Madhukant Kalpit, Pathik Parmar, Raghavji Madhad and myself. In poetry, we have Kisan Sosa, Sahil Parmar, Raju Solanki, Dalpat Chauhan, Shanker Painter and Nirav Patel. They all have the intensity of expression. What they lack, perhaps, is the energy drawn from mass movements. But things are changing for the better. As for recognition, Gujarati Dalit writers have never banked on it much.
KMS	Being the creators of a body of committed literature, Dalit writers obviously have to involve themselves in Social and political activities to a large extent. How significant has been the role of Gujarati Dalit writers in this regard?
HM	Gujarati writers have reinforced the saying, Darpan jhoot na bole (A mirror tells no lies) by faithfully reflecting our vain, pretentious, ritualistic and cosmetic society. They are by nature involved in socio-political activities. In Gujarat, the cradle of the anti-reservation agitation, where the strangle-hold of casteism is still to be broken, the voices of Dalit writers have been courageous and undeterred. The role of Dalit writers in suuffing out the anti-Reservation of 1981 was remarkable. That was perhaps their greatest achievement.
KMS	We have seen that considerable contributions have been made by Dalit writes in both poetry and fiction. But haven’t they lagged behind in drama, even street-plays being few and far between?
HM	The contributions in drama or even the performance of street plays have not matched the achievements in poetry and fiction. There were some significant efforts by Dalpat Chauhan whose plays for radio have received awards from Akashawani. What is lacking is an organized theatre. Plays have to be taken to the masses. In this regard, Raju Solanki deserves our Commendation. Solanki, who has always been an activist first and a writer next, has organized about twenty five performances of his street play, Bahmanvadni         Barakhadi (The ABC of Brahmanism), most of them in North Gujarat, which is still haunted by the spectre of untouchability. I feel that Dalit writers should realize the potential drama holds out to them.
KMS	What do you think have been the drawbacks and failures of Gujarati Dalit literature during the two decades of its existence?
HM	Not anything worth discussing, as far I can see. Dalit writers, if they have the determination and unity in thinking can make a tremendous impact on society with their works in which Man is always the centre.
KMS	Is the existence of Dalit literature a temporary phenomenon? Will it join the so-called ‘mainstream literature’ in the near future, or will it continue to maintain a dialectical relationship with it (as it appeats to be doing now) for a long time to come?
HM	Looking at societies which have a democratic culture, I feel that our Dalit literature is become a permanent phenomenon. If it continues to be a force to Reckon with, Dalit literature will soon become the mainstream and other streams will join it.
KMS	Do you think the formation o ‘Bahujan Sahitya Sankul’ by a group of Gujarati Dalit writers in 1990, and the decision to give up the term, ’Dalit’ for the more comprehensive term, ‘Bahujan’, covering the bulk of the backward , oppressed section of society, a step in the right direction? Do you think that this really reflects the polarization of social forces underway in the country? Or is it too pre-     mature, a mere replay of the old alignments with their inherent short-coming?
HM	There is no specific issue which can be said to have led to the formation of ‘Bahujan Sahitya Sankul’. The term , “Dalit ‘ has a wide significance. Dalit literature has never been sectarian. It can take care of all such ‘sankuls’. Dalit is certainly more appropriate and effective than ‘Bahujan’. Such a formation would not be able to represent the real Dalit literature effectively. The potential for a total polarization of social forces in the country is already inherent in Dalit literature. There is no need to augment it. Such an attempt will merely lead to             augment it. Such an attempt will merely lead to a replay of old alignments, as you put it.
KMS	Do you foresee a conglomeration of progressive literature forces in the country-Secular, Marxist, Dalit, Environmentalist, Feminist – converging to become a formidable cambating the forces of obscurantism and fascism threatening to engulf the intellectual atmosphere of the country?
HM	Yes, it is certainly possible. All these forces were associated, directly or indirectly, with Dalit literature right from the beginning. Secular, Marxist, dalit, feminist and environmentalist movements are integral parts of our social revolution.
KMS	There have been hardly any woman writers in the Gujarati Dalit movement. For a movement which seeks to overthrow traditional values, this seems to be a serious drawback. Can you explain why this happened? Does this mean that there will one day be a feminist movement within the Dalit movement at large?
HM	It is that there have been hardly any woman writers in the Gujarati Dalit literary            movement. Perhaps a poet like Usha Makwana  may be mentioned, but not anybody of note. The reason is not far to seek. Most of the Gujarati dalit writers of the present generation belong to north Gujarat, notorious for its casteism, where the thrust of the Dalit movement was to get education to get out of the quagmire of socio-economic backwardness. The men among the Dalit communities registered Phenomenal success in this, making effective use of their newly acquired education to combat untouchability and casteism. They women were not so lucky. They continued to languish in the obsolete customs and tradition of orthodox Hinduism. Early marriages, restrictions on going out of the house etc. are still widely prevalent among them. A feminist movement among Dalits will certainly be born – sooner or later. If it gains momentum, it is also certain that the first women writers in Gujarati Dalit literature will also emerge from North Gujarat.
KMS	Among Gujarati Dalit writers, among Gujarati writers in general, the trend is to dabble in several genres at the same time-poetry, fiction, prose, drama. There have been very few who have stuck to any one genre. Would you say this has made many of them jacks-of-all-trades and masters of none?
HM	I would say it shows their versatility. And many of them are masters in their trades. I hope more such versatile writers would appear on the literary scene.
KMS	What were the seminal influences in your career as a writer? I understand that you have actively participated in various social and political agitations related to the Dalit movement. Do you feel that this has given a certain dynamism to your works, which is lacking in the works of your contemporaries who are mere academic poets?
HM	The most seminal influence is the fact that I was born in a small, obscure village of north Gujarat in a socially, economically and politically backward community, oppressed by a murky social order. The ruthless atrocities perpetrated on innocent workers are still fresh in my memory. I still remember the nature of my illiterate father who never succumbed to injustice. His determination and perseverance were extra-ordianary. Jethabhai (that was his real name) knew well that farmers did not lag behind the rest in exploiting the poor. He brought up our large family on what he earned by weaving on a handloom. Poverty loomed large before me in my childhood ,and its many manifestations have made me weep uncontrollably. Now when I write, all these drips on the paper. Then came      the anti-reservation agitation which was a traumatic experience to me. Hectic days followed. I became associated with ‘Dalit Adhikar Manch’,           ‘Sangharsh Sahitya Sangh’ and ‘All India Bank of India SC/ST Employees Federation’. Then there were the literary societies for social action: ‘Literature Study Forum’, ‘Saraswati Sewa Samaj Trust’, ‘Kavya Ghoshti’ etc. I was compiler of ‘Akshay’ magazine with Mohan Parmar . Being always active, my enthusiasm was unbounded. Everything was so dynamic. Some of my contemporaries have remained mere academic poets, as you call them. But most of my friends and contemporaries-Dalpat Cahuhan, Raju solanki, J.K.Barot, Ashwin Desai, Sahil Parmar and Kardam Bhatt, to name   just a few – have always been active and their works have retained the original dynamism.
KMS	Have you ever found your position as a civil servant a hindrance to your creative activities?
HM	Government service is a hindrance to creative activities. I would go further and say that is an imprisonment and a burden. The pen is shackled; the words which well up from your depths are frozen. What good are my hands, I often think. Being an officer is the last straw. Naturally, I have to restrain myself. I murder my words. This is one of the reasons why Dalit literature, as it is written by me and several of my fellow-writers who are in Government service, has not been as aggressive as it should be. Its impact on society often gets watered down.
KMS	Would it be correct to say that your poetry is more urban and sophisticated   than that of many of your   Contemporaries in Gujarati Dalit literature and has drawn more from the contemporary socio-political milieu rather from the folk traditions of rural Gujarat?
HM	I think I have written poems of both types. If you read my collection of poems,   Prakamp, you will find that poems like ‘Damiyal Local’, ‘Gameni Geet’ and ‘Mer   Bhoondina’ can be related to the folk tradition. The majority of the poems,however, were born in the more sophisticated contemporary socio-political milieu.
KMS	Are you involved in the composition of any  major work now?
HM	There are a lot of things in my mind. But I don’t have as much time as I would like to have. I am now working on a study of Dalit literature and a long novel.
KMS	Do you think you have received the recognition that you deserve? Or do you think academic distinctions don’t matter?
HM	Like other writers in the Dalit movement, I too have never bothered about recognition. The extent of our commitment to the cause is what really bothers us. That is what sets us apart from other writers.